Thread: Mage Knight Board Game: The Lost Legion:: Rules:: Know Your Enemy in a city to deprive elemental attack

by Luce

I brought this up in the FAQ board, but it spawned a lot of discussion, so I'm posting this here. I'm going to attempt to summarize the discussion that we've had over there thus far. Note that some posts may be quoted out of order, and apologies if anyone quoted here feels misrepresented - it is not intentional so let me know and I'll correct this post.

My OP:

Luce wrote:

Wolfhawk has an ability (Know Your Enemy maybe?) that allows her to cancel one special ability from an enemy once per round, so long as that enemy does not have Arcane Resistance.

Tonight my friend used this ability to cancel the element (ice or fire, don't remember which) of an enemy in the blue city. Prior to using the ability, this enemy had +2 to their attack due to the blue city, but Wolfhawk's ability made the attack just physical.

My question is whether we should have played it as +2 to the physical attack because we are meant to treat the tokens as though the attack value on the token has changed or whether eliminating the elemental nature of the attack also eliminates the bonus gained from the city.

The rulebook reads: "In the Blue city, all defenders get +2 Attack if they have Ice Attack or Fire Attack, and +1 Attack if they have Cold Fire Attack." Based on this, we ruled that the token did not have +2 attack because it no longer met the criteria described. Seems like it could be thematic (something mystical about the city makes elemental attacks more powerful but it does not directly impact the creature itself) but we weren't 100% that this was the right answer.

How is this situation played?

Note that there is nothing that addresses this situation specifically which is why the question is up in the air:

Luce wrote:

The only thing in the rulebook is "If X, then Y." After using the ability, X is no longer true. So what is there to suggest "then Y"?

jsciv wrote:

Here's what the rules say about special effects: "Unless a restrictive effect is otherwise stated, you may play additional combat effects (that affect your Units, enemies, or combat rules) during any of these phases. Unless stated otherwise, that effect persists until the end of the turn."

Now, let's skip to the Block Phase section: "After performing any Ranged and Siege Attacks, the Block phase begins. In this phase, all enemies that have not been eliminated get to attack..."

There is no mention before that of the attack value of an enemy, so it seems to me that if Wolfhawk plays her ability during the Ranged and Siege Attack Phase (or any time before you decide to total up the attack of an enemy) then the new effect would apply. So I would rule in the above scenario that removing the element would mean that the +2 is NOT applied.

tumorous wrote:

I don't see how the rulebook differentiates between ongoing or immediate effects in a way that allows us to definitively answer this question.

Is the city ability provided once and therefore a lasting effect that wouldn't be undone? Or an ongoing effect that could be undermined by cutting off its "if-then" application?

Both sorts of effects can exist in other games, so neither is sure to be the correct answer unless an official source points us in one direction or the other.

Faso74it posted the following, considering the intent of the city abilities:

Faso74it wrote:

Enemies in a city are tougher. Each city grants an "ability" to its inhabitants. (note also that different cities have more chances of having inhabitants that benefit from the particular city bonus).

"Know your enemy" helps overcoming enemies removing one special ability.

This particular monster in the blue city had an ice attack; so it got a +2 on its attack.

If Know Your Enemy would cancel both the ice quality of the attack and thus the bonus provided by the blue city, it would be working "twice", i.e. it would be removing 2 "abilities" (though the blue city bonus is not strictly an ability).

Because of this I feel it sounds "unfair" this behaviour.

But I do agree it is open to interpretation.

This got me thinking and in my response, I thought of something that I think could point us toward an answer (bolded):

Luce wrote:

There are other cards in the game that negate multiple things - for example, Expose removes all fortification, even if it's double fortified.

I've had occasions in the blue city where all tokens but one had physical attack only. This wasn't unfair - I got lucky that time around. If physical attack was meant to be boosted by the city, it would be boosted by the city.

Furthermore, if we were in the red or green city and Know Your Enemy was used to remove fire or ice attack, would you say that that token would therefore get brutal or poison, respectively? I think that they would since physical attacks delivered by enemies in that city are brutal/poison. By your logic, they would not.

And then pabula asked the following, which also seems to bring us closer to an answer:

pabula wrote:

The same question would be with summoned brown enemy by Illusionists.
Is their Attack with bonus? My opinion yes.

Luckily, this had been answered before:

pabula wrote:

http://boardgamegeek.com/article/8558432#8558432

The answer is yes.
So if that is true, then we have the same situation here.
The enemy is not only losing the elemental power but also the bonus of the city. (or in some other city - he gains that bonus )

There were a couple more exchanges that brought other players around to the idea that the bonus is indeed lost:

Faso74it wrote:

ricky2002 wrote:

Faso74it wrote:

And what about an Ice Attack in the Green City, that gets deprived of its Ice quality by Wolfhawk's Know Your Enemy skill? Would it become poisonous?

Yes, because Know Your Prey explicitly says the attack type becomes "Physical" and Green City says all defenders with Physical attack gain Poison. I would resolve these things at the point the attack type, abilities and bonuses are required (i.e. when the attack happens).

Then I have to modify my opinion about the OP:
If Know Your Enemy deprives a monster token of its Ice Attack in the Blue City, it also deprives it of the +2 granted by the City itself.

This way the behaviour of KYE is consistent.

pabula wrote:

hm, Prayer of Weather is also triggered instantly.
So maybe you convinced me that enemies loose their bonus... (pabula posted this before the post above.)

So there you have it. This thread is now here to:
-allow for further discussion without excess clutter in the FAQ thread while we search for an answer,
-provide a searchable reference for others who might have the same question, and
-hopefully get the attention of Paul, Flip, or Vlaada for an official answer.